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HH
One of the most amazing and important works in all of history is Rabbi Nussun of Breslov's Likutay Halachos. So why would someone (the Chofetz Chaim), fifty years later name his own compilation by the same name?! Was he unaware of this awesome classic?! Or maybe he did it for the sake of Heaven, to conceal those who were learning the real thing, for there was great opposition against them... Either way it is very strange.
Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!
One of the most amazing and important works in all of history is Rabbi Nussun of Breslov's Likutay Halachos. So why would someone (the Chofetz Chaim), fifty years later name his own compilation by the same name?! Was he unaware of this awesome classic?! Or maybe he did it for the sake of Heaven, to conceal those who were learning the real thing, for there was great opposition against them... Either way it is very strange.
Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!
9 comments:
[POINT 1]
A Lechtiger + Gezinter Vinter
[POINT 2]
IMHO Based on the following "points" (they may not be facts, just my impressions):
1. I think the Chofetz Chaim had a broadly supportive view of Breslov Chassidus, compared to other Chassiduses
2. The Chofetz Chaim worked extensively with other chassidic Rebbes etc and did not behave as a Kano'i against them at all.
3. I have read many quotes from other "earlier" Rebbes (eg the Kotzker) praising R Nachman, praising Likutei Moharan and praising Reb Nosson but i havent seen any quote referring to Likutei Halochos, either positive or negative.
I think "our" Likutei Halochos was probably not well known in that era in general circles.
I don't believe that the Chofetz Chaim had any negative intention.
[POINT 3]
On a side note, do you know why "our" one is called Likutei Halochos?
If compared with the word "Likutei" in "Likutei Moharan" or "Likutei Amarim" (Tanya), the translation of "Likutei" doesn't seem to fit so well... The main point of Sefer isnt a choice selection of Halochos, it's more a choice selection of Breslov Chassidus which connects to (already existing) Halochos in a way which illuminates, impacts and teaches.
I wonder why Rabbi Nosson called it that?
[POINT 4]
Lastly I had B"H B"H a sweet Yomtov etc, i managed about 20 / 30 pages of Ramchal's Da'as Tevunos (I'm cheating a bit as it has an English Feldheim translation) and i mamash didnt see any Oros yet - am i learning the wrong Sefer?
Apart from a few (that seem to me) extremely "dakkos-dik" points, hasn't the main information here has all already been covered extensively in Rav Avigdor Miller's books?
(slightly joking :-)
Where is the Torah that got him banned / expelled? - that's the Torah with the kind of energy I want to learn! OR you said he quotes from Avrohom Avinu etc?
Wishing you so much Simcha and Hatzlacha
Much love Me'eretz Merchakim!!
MCR
HH
Whatever his reason, it shows how far off he was from the redemption.
Likutay Halachos, I think is like Likutay {Moharan on} Halachos.
You should be able to read the whole DT in Hebrew in a few hours - there is one main concept of how the creation is designed to manifest the yichud. And there is also the correlating abridged principles of kabala - which give a comprehensive understanding - providing two different perspectives on the concepts.
If you want to see the conflict on the Ramchal you need to get the letters which are now printed by Machon Ramchal as Igros Ramchal. A very good read, to say the least - e.g. letter 88 and 89 says that most of the rabbis are in it for their honor and money, and that only the greatest saints can learn up to 2 hours a day of Talmud, others may be better off abstaining altogether (this confirms the opinion of the Rambam...).
In Tikunim Chadashim he brings from the tzaddikim who would come down to learn with him, and in bits and pieces elsewhere - there was much more but these were obviously from the first to be banned.
After DT, there are two more critical life altering studies which kind of work in tandem - both are found in Adir Bamurom - with an addition in the Kitzur Kavanos - where the Ramchal explains how all the kavanos that we have from the Arizal are secondary, and not the main kavanos at all - and he lays down the main approach - which is based on the other study - the haichalos (which is also addressed in Likutay Moharan Torah 24).
Na Nach Nachma Nachman MeUman!
Hi
I don't agree with your Maskonoh on the Chofetz Chaim - he probably wasn't zocheh (at that time) to know of Rabbi Nosson's sefer but I don't think that says anything negative about him.
And anyway, you wrote that you had a tzad he was leShem shamayim to help the Breslover Lomdim?
Re: Da'as Tevunos - it is for sure due to a Chisoron in me, probably my chomriyous, but in learning Da'as Tevunos so far (and in reading your one-line summary), I am experiencing a range of emotion between "so what?" and "that's mildly interesting".
That contrasts very much with how I felt / feel when learning something from the Rebbe or Rabbi Nosson - I (often) feel spiritually energised, inspired and a sense of great revelation and chidush / hischadshus which impacts me on many levels - "hungarian wine".
It is even more than the above paragraph, but that's enough for the comparison.
Other paragraphs in other Sifrei Chassidus can have a similar impact on me - though not as much as Breslov Seforim.
I'm not feeling it at all in Da'as Tevunos.
Like i said (to you and anyone reading this) it is my Chisaron. I can see the impact, chiddushim and positivity it is bringing out in you!
Also a deep thinker i met many years ago (even before meeting you) was very "drunk" on the Ramchal
Much love
MC
PS another way of putting it is like a "physics" equation. I sometimes have a certain amount of Rotzon Tov in me to seek closeness to Hashem, which motivates me to even open a Sefer in the first place and not be osek in Bitul Zman or worse.
Some seforim, (often) when I learn them, I will end up with more Rotzon Tov, or renewed Rotzon Tov during / after the limmud. And also Etzos Tovos, but the main thing is the maintained / increased Rotzon.
This is like a machine which perpetuates or even increases spiritual energy (for me)
But other Seforim, I'm using up my Rotzon Tov to learn them, but I don't feel that renewal or external increase during / after learning.
So it's like a much less efficient machine for me to progress.
And that's even if the pure Yedi'os are very clever / important / Mechudoshim etc.
Not that any of the Tzadikim / Seforim are a machine, it is just a Moshol I'm trying to inadequately convey.
HH yes there was an attempt to be melamed zichus, but even at that it was kind of shallow when one considers how awesome and intrinsic Likutay Halachos is... (It is similar to the Shlu and Rambam who named their books by the name of the Torah and the world doesn't go by their names...).
DT isn't just ethics or a motivator it is a scientific revelation of the exact program of the world, and it only takes a few hours to read, so it is important to just do it - get the knowledge, afterwards it will be in your stead.
See if the next things speak to you. These are directions and a hands on approach to hasaga of the A.S. BH. They are shuveh likul nefesh - if you merit, guaranteed. Lack of chiyus and motivation is obviously a protective klipa like the Alshich would fall asleep I think every time he tried learning the Ari's Torah.
NNNNM
The Rebbe's Torah is also not just a motivator etc it is full of oilomos of giluyim and knowledge but it is ALSO mamash felt at all levels.
I think most people drawn to Breslov is not because of the importance of the knowledge, or the profundity of the insight of the Rebbe's teaching. It's because of the way it makes them yearn, think, feel and act. That's just my passing opinion - i don't think i can prove it.
I am drawn to spend time learning things which give me (quite quickly) tosfos rotzon, ta'anugim, simcha etc.
Or to things which I THINK will give me those results - even if they are Aveiros!
Acquiring knowledge seems a distant second to that - especially as there is anyway also awesome knowledge and chidush in Breslov and other Sifrei Chasidus as well. I like to know about things but I am more following a Rotzon-path than a Chochmah-path. Or maybe a Ta'avoh-path. I think you're more of an "intellectual" (in a good sense!) than I am.
To carry on with Mesholim, it is the difference between a dot-exe file and a dot-txt file on your computer - the second contains information, but the first also contains the energy to impact and make things happen!
I will give Da'as Tevuno another try bl"n - certainly for your sake! I was actually partly named after him because my parents learnt Messilas Yeshorim. (I had to be Moshe anyway + another name)
My unconscious response to Da'as Tevunos was not different to the response I have to most Seforim from the Mishna to nowadays seforim, so i doubt that it's because there's a secret wall around the Ramchal's Kabbala specifically! - unless all the doors of most of the Seforim in the world are closed to me except Chasidus!
:)
PS You will probably not be pleased at my next point, which just crossed my mind. I don't know (in my Katnus HaMochin) that I even really agree with the Ramchal in the pages that I have written so far.
I don't mean that in an arrogant way, I am just honestly telling you my thought reaction.
Not that i disagree, either, I just can't see the "definiteness" of the lines I've read so far - not that I am saying that i have properly understood them.
Learning the Rebbe's seforim, the concept of agree or disagree doesn't even make sense, (to me at least) the Torahs are Sparks of Divine Energy that are mostly remaining completely above Hasagah, and the tiny bit that is revealed explode my brain again and again. If someone doesn't want to let that Oir shine in to him, he can do that, but you can't meaningfully "disagree" in an intellectual sense - the Hasagah is too shining and yet also too mysterious to get a grip on to "disagree" with.
But the Ramchal is saying Hashkafa facts, like you said, a scientific overview, etc. And on each line, I ask myself, who says? Maybe it is this way, maybe it isn't.
Yes, some pesukim / Chazal's seem to go with what is being said, but others seem to stress different points.
If it was an Acharon explaining a Sugya I would be very challenging, almost on every sentence.
And even apart from specific argument, who says that Hashem doesn't have many different ways that humans - even Tzadikim - can perceive his creations and his purposes, and so each Tzadik can honestly say things are "certainly this way" or "that way" but they are seeing through their shoresh neshomo / derech Avoda / Beis Av etc?
On the Rebbe's Giluyim, asking those questions is meaningless, the Rebbe isn't revealing a fixed, set thing in one particular way - ie that the outer form is an important "scientific fact" that the mian point is for you to know, but rather he is revealing a great Ohr which can be mislabesh in so many ways - whichever way you understand "spiritual facts", you can get a great upliftedness and mesikus from the Rebbe's Torah.
It doesn't even matter so much if you want to (Ch"v) be "cholek" on the outward form of the way the Rebbe expressed something, that outward form was just one Levush as the Rebbe goes around and around the same Oir from many different angles and HaKofos, if you have any einei sechel or a lev chomed or kisufin at all, you can taste that inner light.
I guess "knowing the fact" (for me at least) is a very small part of the Rebbe's Torah...
Or maybe this whole "PS" is not my real thoughts at all!
Maybe I'm just biased because like a child, I want plenty of sugar and sweetness with my healthy food! I get that in Sifrei Breslov etc so I wouldn't dream of "disagreeing" (who disagrees with delicious food, to paraphrase Reb Shayale Kerestirer) but when I don't taste the pleasure quickly, my disappointment shows itself as "disagreeing" ...
"with the Ramchal in the pages that I have written so far" should say "that I have READ so far" !!
sorry
HH
Amazing - because for some reason I wasn't notified or at least pick up on the notifications of your last comments after mine, and I only returned here to remind you of your namesake - and low and behold that's exactly what you did!!! And then I read your comments and you wrote many points which I considered writing to you back then!!! B"H amazing. - It would seem to be like you say that the Rebbe is giving us from Kesser - that's why there is almost no order - His Torahs encompass everything and everywhere, and you always see it reflected wherever you look etc.. Whereas the Ramchal lays down principles of chuchma etc..
The thing is that like Rabbainu says it is impossible to remain in the Ain Sof - and Kesser is the aspect of the Ain Sof, one needs to have rutzoa vishoav. Now Rabbainu is self sufficient - even when one comes out of Kesser, Rabbainu is there for him, with aitzos and direction. However, there is plenty of room for the chuchma of the Ramchal to build a platform. So even if you feel it is dry and not feeding the rutzoan, rest assured that as you inculcate the huge yisoadoas of the Ramchal, they become Kessehr - they become part and parcel of everything Rabbainu is saying - and light is just beyond. It isn't like it is such a long arduous different study - for someone with kishron - learning the necessities of the Ramchal shouldn't take very long at all - and then he needs time for them to cook inside of him, and resonate with his general hashgacha at the world, and then he is in business. There are also things in the Ramchal which can blow you away on the spot - but I won't lay them out, for many reasons. You can take a look at Likutay Nanach torah 6 and 24 and see how what are known in tradition to be the most fundamental Torahs of Rabbainu are much congruous with the Ramchal. awesome stuff. There's a great deal more to say, B"H, they well develop.
NNNNM!
HH the real truth is that the Ramchal is definitely in the Kessehr (as he says that he is koalel both Messiahs...), for he reveals explicitly the true Unification of HY (and like no other ever revealed explicitly even remotely close). The difference is like e.g. the 4 times we say Shema, by the word echad - Hashem is One - in all 4 times we cap at the same moachin, the differences are only how many were needed to be attained then and in "Yisroel" at night we have to (pardon the coarse language) "haul" in all the moachin quickly, whereas in the day we already have many moachin, and we just need one or two more steps. - similarly like the Arizal explained that Rabbainu Hakadosh - Rabbi Yehuda Hanusi - woudn't really stop his teaching Torah to say Shema, he would just pass his hand etc. - because he was already permanently in those moachin, so all he had to do was announce the unification, whereas everyone else needs the whole building ascending process. So it is that Rabbainu presents to even the lowest and sunken soul the ways of getting to the highest yichud, but if one can merit to be there at the yichud he can skip much faster - even still Rabbainu revealed that even to a tzaddik who lives his every movement by yichudim, even such a tzaddik needs to gain guidance from Rabbainu - but that is already way beyond what we are talking about here, may we merit to know from it.
Also see letter 50 of the Ramchal's letters:
שתים הנה דרכים תמצאנה להם לתקן את השרש הכללי: או [א] - אשר יתגברו בכחם באור המגיע אליהם, ויהיו שוברים הקליפות ומאירים לרבים. או [ב] - שמתחת לקליפות עצמם, כאדם מזוין העומד בבטן הארי וקורע אותו מבפנים, כן הם בתיקונים אשר מלגו ירבו אור ותיקון, עד זמן אשר יאמר "אז יבקע כשחר אורך" כי יהיה ממש בוקע ויוצא וכו' וכו' וכו'
כן ימצא איש אשר יזכה להשגות על ידי סיגופים ופרישות, הוא יהיה לקרוע הס"א ולצאת כנ"ל. וימצא איש אשר לא בדרך הזה ידרוך, ותיקונים ינתנו לו בדרך האחר כנ"ל עכ"ל עיין שם כל דה"ק.
ובפשטות הרמח"ל מציין את עצמו כסוג השני, כידוע שהוא לא עסק בסיגופים וכדומה, והוא זכה בפינימות להשגות, ולא כל כך הצליח לפרוץ דרך לגלות על נס את יחודו יתברך, רק קבע בתוך הספרים שלו, ולאט לאט יצא אורם בעולם, לכל מי שזכה וזוכה ללמוד בהם, ולהשפיע לאחרים.
ואילו רבינו ממש זכה לגמרי לפרוץ דרך אור ה' לכל העולם.
נ נח נחמ נחמן מאומן!
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